You will need an 2-3stop ND or a polarized filter, 1/8000 is not enough on bright daylight if you subject is directly lit from the sun. Might work while backlit or in shades, but direct noon/pm sunlight? Nope, it will be about 1-2 stop overexposed, but you can also easily reajust the exposure with the raws.

This was my main annoyance with the R5 since a shoot families and portraits with the 85 alot. One of the main reasons I also went R3 with is thank god liberating 1/64000.

Not exactly true. I have compared DPR RAW file at ISO 100 with ISO L (=50) RAW (shot using the same shutter speed and aperture) and found that ISO L RAW is practically identical to the darker file I got using DPRSplit to split my DPR ISO 100 RAW file.

By the way, I have tried shooting in DPR mode at ISO L and wish I could get ISO 25 performance using DPRSplit. Unfortunately, DPRSplit gave me two identical files at ISO 50 brightness instead of one normal file and one darker file I got when shooting at higher ISO. - no ISO 25

Well, I don't know exactly how much brighter it is on those beaches than it is here in NY, but on bright sunny days, even with older DSLRs with less headroom at base ISO(s), I found ISO 100, 1/100, and f/16 to give OOC images that were already too dark, and f/13 would be more reasonable.

You won't be able to do f1.2 in bright tropical mid-day sun.   I can't even do f1.8 sometimes.  As I said above, you probably won't want to shoot portraits when it is that bright out.

Not sure if I understand this.  To my understanding, when you see clipping in your histogram it's clipping, regardless if the kind of light causing the clipping.

No he's on a beach in the Turks and Caicos, where the light will sometimes be brighter than the EV 15 used by the Sunny16 rule, due to reflections off the sand. Common recommendation of white sand beach shots is EV 16 (which would require a Sunny 22).

I understand, but I have read numerous sites that say you don't lose DR with ISO L vs 100, and some that say otherwise...and I cannot provide empirical proof now, that you are mistaken.

No he's on a beach in the Turks and Caicos, where the light will sometimes be brighter than the EV 15 used by the Sunny16 rule, due to reflections off the sand. Common recommendation of white sand beach shots is EV 16 (which would require a Sunny 22).

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The difference between 1/125 and 1/8000 is six stops reduction. The difference between ISO 100 and ISO 50 is another stop reduction. The difference between f/16 and f/1.2 is seven and a third stops increase so {1/8000, f/1.2, ISO 50} would be 1/3 stop overexposed and your suggestion of "ISO 50 is f/1.2 and 1/5000" would be a full stop overexposed for EVB 15 lighting, and at least two stops overexposed for a white sand beach near midday.

You can do portraits in the middle of the day, if you can place the model in open shade, and better if one uses flash + ND filter (to stay within sync speed) and the body can be placed in M mode + evaluative mode, and meter on the background (maybe darkening it a bit), and the E-TTL flash will paint in the model's skin.  There you have it, in the middle of the day, camera meters for background, flash for the model, ND keeps the shutter speed within sync speed.

This was my main annoyance with the R5 since a shoot families and portraits with the 85 alot. One of the main reasons I also went R3 with is thank god liberating 1/64000.

Not all cameras have the same headroom, though. The R5 has more than a stop more headroom at ISO 50 than the first Canon FF cameras that sported ISO 50. Look at the DxOMark "Measured ISO", and you will see that it has been dropping at base ISO over the years, especially in cameras with dual conversion gain.

Well, the problem of ISO 50 is it doesn't do anything to avoid blown out white areas. For a model with light blond hair a filter is what you need.

Sure, but do you like doing portraits at mid-day in the harsh sun?  If you wait for pleasing evening or early morning golden hour light, then it will not be too bright.

There's a big difference between using full manual in steady lighting and allowing some parameter to float based on metering; that could cause even ISO 50 to blow if the shutter speed drops or the ISO raises with auto-ISO due to dark scene areas influencing the metering.--Beware of correct answers to wrong questions.Johnhttp://www.pbase.com/image/55384958.jpg

"Sunny f/16" is not shooting at f/16. It is a starting point for shooting in direct sunlight at noon (near the equator, I assume) without metering, with full manual exposure. The starting point assumes shutter speed denominators the same as the ISO, at f/16.

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The R5 also has the potential of more headroom in dual-pixel RAW mode, but that does not happen in a simple manner, as there is an inverse horizontal color gradient in the split images, and getting color in these extra highlights can be mathematically more involved.

Compared to ISO 100 and assuming "normal" exposure of grey for those ISOs, there is a headroom penalty. Headroom and DR are two completely different things.

You will need an 2-3stop ND or a polarized filter, 1/8000 is not enough on bright daylight if you subject is directly lit from the sun. Might work while backlit or in shades, but direct noon/pm sunlight? Nope, it will be about 1-2 stop overexposed, but you can also easily reajust the exposure with the raws.

You miss the point of using fast primes wide open, not at f16...perhaps you were just being sarcastic/funny? Even when I use ISO L, I often hit the 1/8000s limit when I shoot with my R5 + one of the f1.2 RF primes wide open.

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What is this obsession with DR, to drag it into every conversation? The R5 could have a lot more read noise than it does, and that would change DR, but it would not change anything with the issue here: maximum recordable absolute exposure.

This was my main annoyance with the R5 since a shoot families and portraits with the 85 alot. One of the main reasons I also went R3 with is thank god liberating 1/64000.

The R5 also has the potential of more headroom in dual-pixel RAW mode, but that does not happen in a simple manner, as there is an inverse horizontal color gradient in the split images, and getting color in these extra highlights can be mathematically more involved.

You will need an 2-3stop ND or a polarized filter, 1/8000 is not enough on bright daylight if you subject is directly lit from the sun. Might work while backlit or in shades, but direct noon/pm sunlight? Nope, it will be about 1-2 stop overexposed, but you can also easily reajust the exposure with the raws.

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Furthermore, ISO 50 on the R5 is actually taken at ISO 100 then darkened, so there is a greater risk of blown highlights than at the base ISO of 100.

This was my main annoyance with the R5 since a shoot families and portraits with the 85 alot. One of the main reasons I also went R3 with is thank god liberating 1/64000.

The difference between 1/125 and 1/8000 is six stops reduction. The difference between ISO 100 and ISO 50 is another stop reduction. The difference between f/16 and f/1.2 is seven and a third stops increase so {1/8000, f/1.2, ISO 50} would be 1/3 stop overexposed and your suggestion of "ISO 50 is f/1.2 and 1/5000" would be a full stop overexposed for EVB 15 lighting, and at least two stops overexposed for a white sand beach near midday.

"DR" comes up in so many conversations where it doesn't belong. It is NOT headroom, and it is NOT an exposure-referred noise metric, even though the bottom of the range is calculated with a noise value.

You will need an 2-3stop ND or a polarized filter, 1/8000 is not enough on bright daylight if you subject is directly lit from the sun. Might work while backlit or in shades, but direct noon/pm sunlight? Nope, it will be about 1-2 stop overexposed, but you can also easily reajust the exposure with the raws.

Sure, but do you like doing portraits at mid-day in the harsh sun? If you wait for pleasing evening or early morning golden hour light, then it will not be too bright.

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Well, I don't know exactly how much brighter it is on those beaches than it is here in NY, but on bright sunny days, even with older DSLRs with less headroom at base ISO(s), I found ISO 100, 1/100, and f/16 to give OOC images that were already too dark, and f/13 would be more reasonable.

You will need an 2-3stop ND or a polarized filter, 1/8000 is not enough on bright daylight if you subject is directly lit from the sun. Might work while backlit or in shades, but direct noon/pm sunlight? Nope, it will be about 1-2 stop overexposed, but you can also easily reajust the exposure with the raws.

Sunny 16 is a mnemonic. It doesn’t mean you have to shoot at f16. If you follow the rule for a sunny day at f16, the inverse of iso 50 would be 1/50th of a second. Then you would accelerate the shutter speed for each stop you lower. I can no longer remember how you adjust that but it’s what he’s saying would lead you to a reasonable exposure wide open within the shutter speeds.

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You will need an 2-3stop ND or a polarized filter, 1/8000 is not enough on bright daylight if you subject is directly lit from the sun. Might work while backlit or in shades, but direct noon/pm sunlight? Nope, it will be about 1-2 stop overexposed, but you can also easily reajust the exposure with the raws.

You won't be able to do f1.2 in bright tropical mid-day sun. I can't even do f1.8 sometimes. As I said above, you probably won't want to shoot portraits when it is that bright out.

I don't know what degree it happens on the R5, because I haven't heard of any measurements or measured it myself, but many cameras tend to throw away a little bit of RAW headroom when the lens reports an f-ratio around f/2.0 or less, so you do lose a bit at f/1.2 (unnecessarily; just the stupid way Canon does math), but I have never had the R5 blow any matte highlights even using sunny-f/16 for ISO 32 (NYC latitude) with slower lenses. We are approaching highest solar noon in a few weeks here, and I hope I remember to test the limits again on very clear day.

Not all cameras have the same headroom, though. The R5 has more than a stop more headroom at ISO 50 than the first Canon FF cameras that sported ISO 50. Look at the DxOMark "Measured ISO", and you will see that it has been dropping at base ISO over the years, especially in cameras with dual conversion gain.

This was my main annoyance with the R5 since a shoot families and portraits with the 85 alot. One of the main reasons I also went R3 with is thank god liberating 1/64000.

but its ISO 50 has more headroom than slide film. It is only compromised relative to reversal film with its highlight latitude, or ISO 100.

Since an ISO 100 DPR file has a bright file that can show about 1 stop more dark details, that means ISO 100 shot in DPR mode has 1 stop more DR than ISO L - if user know how to use a photo editing software to combine these files in HDR mode

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Compared to ISO 100 and assuming "normal" exposure of grey for those ISOs, there is a headroom penalty. Headroom and DR are two completely different things.

Knowing that it will be super bright and sunny, I am worried that even with ISO 100, I wont be able to expose properly at f1.2..

In any event, the OP should try it without the ND filter, if the OP is willing to use full manual. It would be a shame to suffer the losses of the filter for nothing, by just assuming that it is necessary.

You miss the point of using fast primes wide open, not at f16...perhaps you were just being sarcastic/funny? Even when I use ISO L, I often hit the 1/8000s limit when I shoot with my R5 + one of the f1.2 RF primes wide open.

Sure, but f1.2 on that looks like f2 on the R5. So if that is acceptable, just use your 85L at f2 and you'll probably squeak by.

Sunny 16 is a mnemonic. It doesn’t mean you have to shoot at f16. If you follow the rule for a sunny day at f16, the inverse of iso 50 would be 1/50th of a second. Then you would accelerate the shutter speed for each stop you lower. I can no longer remember how you adjust that but it’s what he’s saying would lead you to a reasonable exposure wide open within the shutter speeds.

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Furthermore, ISO 50 on the R5 is actually taken at ISO 100 then darkened, so there is a greater risk of blown highlights than at the base ISO of 100.

My experience with the R5 has been that I can do "sunny f/16" for even ISO 32 with no issues with any matte objects, and I can push it to ISO 25 for most matte surfaces, except perhaps fresh coats of super-white paint. That's why some of the statements here puzzle me. Of course, for this to work, you have to go full manual; if you leave a parameter floating, then a dark area heavily weighted in the metering can cause RAW highlights to blow where full-manual wouldn't. This is based on NYC-area "sunny days"; in high mountains and near the equator, there may be a little more light.

This was my main annoyance with the R5 since a shoot families and portraits with the 85 alot. One of the main reasons I also went R3 with is thank god liberating 1/64000.

Well, I don't know exactly how much brighter it is on those beaches than it is here in NY, but on bright sunny days, even with older DSLRs with less headroom at base ISO(s), I found ISO 100, 1/100, and f/16 to give OOC images that were already too dark, and f/13 would be more reasonable.

Sunny 16 is a mnemonic. It doesn’t mean you have to shoot at f16. If you follow the rule for a sunny day at f16, the inverse of iso 50 would be 1/50th of a second. Then you would accelerate the shutter speed for each stop you lower. I can no longer remember how you adjust that but it’s what he’s saying would lead you to a reasonable exposure wide open within the shutter speeds.

The Sunny 16 rule was developed before 1/3 stops were common. Thus it was {1/125, f/16, ASA 100}, not 1/100. The difference between 1/125 and 1/8000 is six stops reduction. The difference between ISO 100 and ISO 50 is another stop reduction. The difference between f/16 and f/1.2 is seven and a third stops increase so {1/8000, f/1.2, ISO 50} would be 1/3 stop overexposed and your suggestion of "ISO 50 is f/1.2 and 1/5000" would be a full stop overexposed for EVB 15 lighting, and at least two stops overexposed for a white sand beach near midday.

Knowing that it will be super bright and sunny, I am worried that even with ISO 100, I wont be able to expose properly at f1.2..

You will need an 2-3stop ND or a polarized filter, 1/8000 is not enough on bright daylight if you subject is directly lit from the sun. Might work while backlit or in shades, but direct noon/pm sunlight? Nope, it will be about 1-2 stop overexposed, but you can also easily reajust the exposure with the raws.

This was my main annoyance with the R5 since a shoot families and portraits with the 85 alot. One of the main reasons I also went R3 with is thank god liberating 1/64000.

Maybe it's just a language problem, but I don't understand what "slide film" and "reversal film" is.  Could you please explain a bit further or in other words?

You will need an 2-3stop ND or a polarized filter, 1/8000 is not enough on bright daylight if you subject is directly lit from the sun. Might work while backlit or in shades, but direct noon/pm sunlight? Nope, it will be about 1-2 stop overexposed, but you can also easily reajust the exposure with the raws.

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That headroom penalty is an anachronism from the old days...it does not apply so much with the R5.  The last time I was so concerned with ISO L usage was when I shot with the 5D Mark I, and a bit with the Mark II, but this is not much of a problem in 2022 and with the latest mirrorless bodies.

Yes, I know that :-).  My point was that even if you do the math starting at f16 on a sunny, down to f1.2 you're going to need a shutter speed a lot faster than 1/8000s even if ISO L is used. Consequently, using ISO L on a sunny day for shooting wide-open f1.2 primes will not always work.

In any event, the OP should try it without the ND filter, if the OP is willing to use full manual. It would be a shame to suffer the losses of the filter for nothing, by just assuming that it is necessary.

This was my main annoyance with the R5 since a shoot families and portraits with the 85 alot. One of the main reasons I also went R3 with is thank god liberating 1/64000.

You will need an 2-3stop ND or a polarized filter, 1/8000 is not enough on bright daylight if you subject is directly lit from the sun. Might work while backlit or in shades, but direct noon/pm sunlight? Nope, it will be about 1-2 stop overexposed, but you can also easily reajust the exposure with the raws.

Sure, but f1.2 on that looks like f2 on the R5.  So if that is acceptable, just use your 85L at f2 and you'll probably squeak by.

Well, the problem of ISO 50 is it doesn't do anything to avoid blown out white areas. For a model with light blond hair a filter is what you need.

This was my main annoyance with the R5 since a shoot families and portraits with the 85 alot. One of the main reasons I also went R3 with is thank god liberating 1/64000.

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No he's on a beach in the Turks and Caicos, where the light will sometimes be brighter than the EV 15 used by the Sunny16 rule, due to reflections off the sand. Common recommendation of white sand beach shots is EV 16 (which would require a Sunny 22).

My point was that even if you do the math starting at f16 on a sunny, down to f1.2 you're going to need a shutter speed a lot faster than 1/8000s even if ISO L is used. Consequently, using ISO L on a sunny day for shooting wide-open f1.2 primes will not always work.

John, you keep forgetting that the question at hand is about shooting portraits wide open (f1.2, f1.4, etc)....F13 is a non-starter.

"DR" comes up in so many conversations where it doesn't belong. It is NOT headroom, and it is NOT an exposure-referred noise metric, even though the bottom of the range is calculated with a noise value.

The R5, like most (but not all) Canons that sport ISO 50 have a stop less headroom at ISO 50 than at ISO 100, but its ISO 50 has more headroom than slide film. It is only compromised relative to reversal film with its highlight latitude, or ISO 100.

I dream of a world where photographers only talked about DR when it actually matters, which is currently about 3% of the times that it is mentioned.

You miss the point of using fast primes wide open, not at f16...perhaps you were just being sarcastic/funny? Even when I use ISO L, I often hit the 1/8000s limit when I shoot with my R5 + one of the f1.2 RF primes wide open.

John, you keep forgetting that the question at hand is about shooting portraits wide open (f1.2, f1.4, etc)....F13 is a non-starter.

You miss the point of using fast primes wide open, not at f16...perhaps you were just being sarcastic/funny?  Even when I use ISO L, I often hit the 1/8000s limit when I shoot with my R5 + one of the f1.2 RF primes wide open.

More likely not to work if you're not using full manual (manual exposure, and manual ISO). You can't trust metering when you are near an exposure wall like this.

Well, the problem of ISO 50 is it doesn't do anything to avoid blown out white areas. For a model with light blond hair a filter is what you need.

Furthermore, ISO 50 on the R5 is actually taken at ISO 100 then darkened, so there is a greater risk of blown highlights than at the base ISO of 100.

You miss the point of using fast primes wide open, not at f16...perhaps you were just being sarcastic/funny? Even when I use ISO L, I often hit the 1/8000s limit when I shoot with my R5 + one of the f1.2 RF primes wide open.

Sunny 16 is a mnemonic. It doesn’t mean you have to shoot at f16. If you follow the rule for a sunny day at f16, the inverse of iso 50 would be 1/50th of a second. Then you would accelerate the shutter speed for each stop you lower. I can no longer remember how you adjust that but it’s what he’s saying would lead you to a reasonable exposure wide open within the shutter speeds.